I have a question for our aggie friends - Joe and Mike

[doc longhorn]

Can you be objective?

It appears there is a real good chance that 3 aggie's could be amongst the first 10 players drafted - Manziel, Matthews and Evans (my personal favorite for the Texans).

How then is it possible for A&M to finish 4th in their own division?  Does this not make you a teeny bit apprehensive about your coaching situation?

Doesn't it now seem that Sumlin couldn't win the college national championship with the Seattle Seahawks?

Don't be offended, we have somewhat the same scenario with our own basketball coach.

 

[drgilbert]

My guess is they both tell you they have complete faith in Sumlin and the offense. If their defense is in top 25 they win a NC last year. Also they will say recruiting is fantastic and in 2 years the old wrecking crew will be back. I live in aggy country and this is what I hear.

 

[PropositionJoe]

two thoughts: 

1) defense was atrocious last year. mark snyder won me over in 2012 when he performed admirably with very little depth, but 2013 was a rough year for him and unless we see improvement, he's gone in 2014. 

that being said, after kirby ennis got hurt, we were rotating two true freshmen in at NG. in the chick fila bowl we had true freshmen starting at NG, DE, and MLB. that's not good. 

for all of the credit mike sherman gets for offensive recruiting (and he deserves a ton), he crapped the bed when it came to defensive recruiting. 

2) we missed kliff kingsbury, and clarence mckinney was in over his head. we were in position to beat auburn...our defense actually got stops, but we couldnt go up two touchdowns before the half. clarence relied too much on johnny and not enough on our running backs. we only attempted to run the ball 6 times against LSU despite having three former four star recruits and one 5 star available to us. 

mckinney agreed to step down and go back to solely coaching RBs, and jake spavital will be our new OC in 2014. i feel confident that he'll make better use of our personnel. 

 

[doc longhorn]

two thoughts: 

1) defense was atrocious last year. mark snyder won me over in 2012 when he performed admirably with very little depth, but 2013 was a rough year for him and unless we see improvement, he's gone in 2014. 

that being said, after kirby ennis got hurt, we were rotating two true freshmen in at NG. in the chick fila bowl we had true freshmen starting at NG, DE, and MLB. that's not good. 

for all of the credit mike sherman gets for offensive recruiting (and he deserves a ton), he crapped the bed when it came to defensive recruiting. 

2) we missed kliff kingsbury, and clarence mckinney was in over his head. we were in position to beat auburn...our defense actually got stops, but we couldnt go up two touchdowns before the half. clarence relied too much on johnny and not enough on our running backs. we only attempted to run the ball 6 times against LSU despite having three former four star recruits and one 5 star available to us. 

mckinney agreed to step down and go back to solely coaching RBs, and jake spavital will be our new OC in 2014. i feel confident that he'll make better use of our personnel. 

Joe - that's all I hear is how bad the aggie defense was.  I've watched several games and it wasn't THAT bad.  Honestly, what I saw was a bunch of kids that were not in the best shape and always appeared gassed.  If you have an offense that can score in 1 1/2 minutes, your defense better be in shape or you have a ton of depth.  That has always been the problem with quick scoring teams.   Mike Leach, Holgorson, Sumlin, Briles - what has always been the problem with their teams?

In addition, high scoring offenses require a LOT of practice and defenses simply don't get the same amount of reps and love.

Also, like Barnes, I don't think Sumlin has what it takes to win the big games, i.e.;  conference and national championship games.  Ultimately, they get out coached by better coaches.  This brings to mind the classic championship game between U o f H and North Carolina State - the Phi Slamma Jama bunch. Jim Valvano was just a better coach than Guy Lewis and beat his overwhelmingly favored Cougar team.

Actually, I think Mack Brown falls in the same category as Sumlin.  Mack won with a transcendent QB - in spite of himself.  (Sumlin couldn't even do that.)  But for an injury, Mack might have won again with the most accurate passer in the history of the game.

Another way to look at it is - if aggie, UT and KSU played 5 games against each other, with equivalent talent, who would win the majority - between Sumlin, Mack or Snyder?

Doesn't this put it into perspective?

 

[PropositionJoe]

i think we'll agree to disagree on how bad the defense was. we were ranked 109 to end the year. contrast that with being 57 to end the 2012 season. 

i do agree about being gassed, but when you're running true freshmen out who have been in a college S&C program for less than 6 months, that might be bound to happen. 

as for big games, you have to get there to prove that you can with them. sumlin had two big games in 2012 that he won against bama and OU. 

the only team that has consistently out coached us the past two years has been LSU--specifically john chavis. he has won both of his matchups against kingsbury/mckinney. 

as for your last question, i think snyder would win the most games, and sumlin and mack would have fairly similar records. 

 

[Darrell McPhaul]

doc & Joe,

I think you both have valid points.  The defense was atrocious and gassed most of the time but, as Joe has stated, that happens when you are platooning that many freshman onto the field.  

Hat's off to Sumlin for recruiting some very talented defensive players.  

 

[utisdabomb12]

Sumlin's defensive ranks since he's been a head coach. 111, 58, 62, 103, 111, 101.

Until Sumlin drastically changes those numbers, they won't win anything in the SEC. 

 

[doc longhorn]

i think we'll agree to disagree on how bad the defense was. we were ranked 109 to end the year. contrast that with being 57 to end the 2012 season. 

i do agree about being gassed, but when you're running true freshmen out who have been in a college S&C program for less than 6 months, that might be bound to happen. 

as for big games, you have to get there to prove that you can with them. sumlin had two big games in 2012 that he won against bama and OU. 

the only team that has consistently out coached us the past two years has been LSU--specifically john chavis. he has won both of his matchups against kingsbury/mckinney. 

as for your last question, i think snyder would win the most games, and sumlin and mack would have fairly similar records. 

Oh, I'm not saying the aggie defense was GOOD - just not as bad as you think.  A&M should have lost to Duke and you know it.  They were simply worn out because of Manziel.  This was a prime example of a gassed defense.  I agree your defense was young and it showed, but most of your freshmen that played benefited from a red shirt year and should have been up to physical speed.  We'll see how it translates this year, but don't get your hopes up - Sumlin is just who he is and that won't change.

Besides, compare yourselves to UT and Diaz as the DC - and with Case as a QB.  Do you think your defense was worse than ours?

Wait - I forgot.  You CAN compare with our defense and Case.  Sorry, I forgot about the last game of the rivalry ever to be played.  (I'm not gigging you on purpose - well, maybe a little. )

 

[Bear19]

Sumlin's defensive ranks since he's been a head coach. 111, 58, 62, 103, 111, 101.

Until Sumlin drastically changes those numbers, they won't win anything in the SEC.

Or any other conference.

 

[PropositionJoe]

Oh, I'm not saying the aggie defense was GOOD - just not as bad as you think.  

the numbers disagree with you there. agree to disagree. 

A&M should have lost to Duke and you know it.  They were simply worn out because of Manziel.

i disagree here. to the defense's credit, they adjusted. they gave up 38 in the first half and 10 in the second. combine that with johnny having a darn good game, and i dont think we should have lost.

but most of your freshmen that played benefited from a red shirt year and should have been up to physical speed.  

that's not true. in fact the only redshirt frosh that saw any playing time on defense was tyrone taylor (and his PT was limited). the rest were all true freshmen.

We'll see how it translates this year, but don't get your hopes up - Sumlin is just who he is and that won't change.

we'll see. agree that sumlin is an offensive coach, but there's no reason why he cant hire a DC to field a competent defense. 

Besides, compare yourselves to UT and Diaz as the DC - and with Case as a QB.  Do you think your defense was worse than ours?

yes i do. and the numbers agree with me. 

 

[doc longhorn]

the numbers disagree with you there. agree to disagree. 

If you insist the aggie defense was the worst in the world - well, what can I say.  Either you think the SEC is up to it's hype, or it isn't.  You can't have it both ways.

i disagree here. to the defense's credit, they adjusted. they gave up 38 in the first half and 10 in the second. combine that with johnny having a darn good game, and i dont think we should have lost.

You must not have read all of my comment - Dukes defense was gassed by  the middle of the 3rd qtr.  Manziel took advantage of it.  Otherwise A&M loses the game by 25 point.

that's not true. in fact the only redshirt frosh that saw any playing time on defense was tyrone taylor (and his PT was limited). the rest were all true freshmen.

Au Contraire - Golden and Walker were the only true freshmen that started.  Get your facts straight on this.

we'll see. agree that sumlin is an offensive coach, but there's no reason why he cant hire a DC to field a competent defense. 

LOL!  Hasn't that always been the case with him - starting with U of H?  He just never seems to be able to find that special DC, does he?

yes i do. and the numbers agree with me. 

Really?  Too bad you didn't have Diaz as your DC - I think your tune would change.

 

[PropositionJoe]

If you insist the aggie defense was the worst in the world - well, what can I say.  Either you think the SEC is up to it's hype, or it isn't.  You can't have it both ways.

i'm not sure that i get the "SEC not being up to its hype" piece of this.

You must not have read all of my comment - Dukes defense was gassed by  the middle of the 3rd qtr.

looking at the box score, A&M ran all of 43 plays in the first half, and was on the field for about 15 minutes. duke's defense was gassed by that? 

Au Contraire - Golden and Walker were the only true freshmen that started.  Get your facts straight on this.

my facts are pretty straight. at any given point in the year the following true freshmen started a game (or saw significant playing time)

walker (starter)

golden (starter)

arnold (contributor)

mastrogiovanni (starter)

claiborne (starter)

sezer (starter)

hall  (starter)

washington (contributor)

 LOL!  Hasn't that always been the case with him - starting with U of H?  He just never seems to be able to find that special DC, does he?

you're probably right about this, but then again according to the S&P ratings put out by football outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaadef2012), we were able to field a top 10 defense in 2012. I'd imagine that if snyder doesnt show significant improvement this year, he'll probably be let go.

Really?  Too bad you didn't have Diaz as your DC - I think your tune would change.

depends. are we talking the diaz from 2011/2012? because he fielded much better defenses in those years than what A&M put out there this year. 

 

[doc longhorn]

i'm not sure that i get the "SEC not being up to its hype" piece of this.

I'm not saying you have, but the bulk of aggys have put out continuous crap about how they have stepped up to a much better conference than the Big 12.  If, in fact, the SEC is truly that much better, than it would also stand to reason they would be expected to manhandle a previous middle of the pack defense from the Big 12.  Right?

looking at the box score, A&M ran all of 43 plays in the first half, and was on the field for about 15 minutes. duke's defense was gassed by that?  

Were you watching a different game than the rest of the nation?  Or, are you just arguing for arguments sake?  I said Duke was gassed by the 3rd Qtr. and, just like 'Bamas fat LB's, they were worn out chasing Manziel.   Or, are you convinced it was the brilliance of the aggie coaches that made the difference? 

my facts are pretty straight. at any given point in the year the following true freshmen started a game (or saw significant playing time)

walker (starter)

golden (starter)

arnold (contributor)

mastrogiovanni (starter)

claiborne (starter)

sezer (starter)

hall  (starter)

washington (contributor)

Every team plays freshmen throughout the course of the year, including Alabama.  The fact is, according to your own depth chart and at the beginning of the year, there were only TWO true freshmen that were starters.  Because injuries required more true freshmen to be played doesn't alter the original depth chart.

you're probably right about this, but then again according to the S&P ratings put out by football outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaadef2012), we were able to field a top 10 defense in 2012. I'd imagine that if snyder doesnt show significant improvement this year, he'll probably be let go.

Top 10?  Where in the world did they come up with that?

Try this one, where they have A&M at #58 for total defense:  http://www.cfbstats.com/2012/leader/national/team/defense/split01/category10/sort01.html

 

[Agmaniacmike]

Glad to see somebody else repping Football Outsiders stats.

 

[PropositionJoe]

On my phone so you'll have to pardon my brevity

1) the 2011 team was talented but poorly coached. The strength of the sec is overblown yes, but the coaches were able to maximize talent in 2012 in a way that the 2011 coaches weren't (hence Sherman getting fired)

2) maybe you saw something different than I did. I don't see how duke can point to being gassed with that low of a TOP. also what's their offenses excuse for only scoring 10 in the second half? Were they gassed too?

3) so the depth chart can't change? Playing freshman in spots vs relying heavily on them throughout the season are two different things. We relied heavily on freshmen not only to start at different points in the season but to also serve as key back up roles. Not sure I get your argument here.

4) read up on football outsiders. Their stats are much more representative of how good teams are than total defense.

Case in point. In 2012 A&M gave up 90 fewer yards to Bama than notre dame did. Yet notre dame was about 50 spots higher in the total defense rankings.

Good stuff on the football outsiders site.

 

[doc longhorn]

On my phone so you'll have to pardon my brevity

1) the 2011 team was talented but poorly coached. The strength of the sec is overblown yes, but the coaches were able to maximize talent in 2012 in a way that the 2011 coaches weren't (hence Sherman getting fired)

2) maybe you saw something different than I did. I don't see how duke can point to being gassed with that low of a TOP. also what's their offenses excuse for only scoring 10 in the second half? Were they gassed too?

3) so the depth chart can't change? Playing freshman in spots vs relying heavily on them throughout the season are two different things. We relied heavily on freshmen not only to start at different points in the season but to also serve as key back up roles. Not sure I get your argument here.

4) read up on football outsiders. Their stats are much more representative of how good teams are than total defense.

Case in point. In 2012 A&M gave up 90 fewer yards to Bama than notre dame did. Yet notre dame was about 50 spots higher in the total defense rankings.

Good stuff on the football outsiders site.

Good argument, Joe, and one of the reasons I like you.  You don't get bent out of shape when  a Horn fan, like me, intentionally tries to stir you up.

I hereby anoint you an Aggie - not to be confused with an aggy. 

Stay on this board, Joe, most of us are mature adults and realize colleges exist for the purpose of educating kids and not for going to war with each other.

But expect to be be posted up on - this IS a UT board after all. 

 

[PropositionJoe]

ha. i'd expect no less. good debate. thanks for bringing it up...i'm always looking for opportunities to talk football during the long lonely offseason.