*****GAME THREAD: Texas Longhorns @ #13 Baylor Bears*****

[Sirhornsalot]

If Texas knows whats good for it, it won't fire Tom Herman. Otherwise, we're the school where head coaching sure-fire hits go to kill their careers.

The vultures can circle all they want. CDC is who calls the shot and he says he's safe. One thing CDC will not do is succumb to alumni who want to do his job for him.

 

[Captain Hookem]

Could you do me a favor and sum up your point in one sentence?   

Did I miss where someone said they were calling for Rhule over Herman 3 years ago?  I think the basic point is that Rhule is doing much more than Herman with much less.  Do you dispute that?

In one sentence: Can we as a fanbase not be jerks by threatening to run off every coach after a bad weekend (or two)?

Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but chasing off coaches has replaced screaming for the backup QB as a favorite past time. All of my favorite coaches growing up (which were really just Landry and DKR) would've never been given a chance today. Outside my personal preferences, there's a lot of examples of other great coaches that needed... time. 

But look, I get it... One can always look around and find a team that's in a better situation. And yes, Rhule is has got Baylor playing at a really high level right now. And before Rhule tons of folks wanted Gary Patterson. And before that I forget who the flavor of the seasons were, but it really doesn't matter... there's always a shinier object somewhere else. 

Texas football is in a bad place right now, and as I said earlier in a serious 4 game slump. But Herman has coached many more than 4 games, and up until 4 games ago we were pretty optimistic about the program. Up until the point he's proven he can't fix things, it's deleterious to the entire program to talk about his replacement. 

To be clear there *are* times when we obviously have a lame duck coach... Strong after losing to Kansas, Mackovic after 'post concussion syndrome', David McWilliams (kinda after the '91 Cotton Bowl) but definitely not long into the '91 season.  All legit times to have seen quite enough. 

But we aren't there yet with Herman, so until we get there let's stop being jerks. It has a real effect on the program. Anytime our fanbase starts to act aggie it should be a time to reflect. 

 

[DMAC]

Ah, yet another person who is now mysteriously claiming to have wanted Rhule over Herman 3 years ago. Funny how that works....

Where exactly did I see I wanted to hire Rhule over Herman. 

FACT:  I was the biggest Herman fan on this freaking board in Charlies last year.  I was thrilled when we hired Herman.

This team is NOT performing anywhere near last year and its not just the defense. 

Stop making assumptions based on a single comment about comparing two HC's in their third year. 

Texas has had 2 top 3 recruiting classes back to back.  Baylor was 35 & 29 or something like that. 

Are you saying Baylor has better talent and depth? 

 

[DMAC]

In one sentence: Can we as a fanbase not be jerks by threatening to run off every coach after a bad weekend (or two)?

Seriously do you really believe a few posts by disappointed fans on Hornsports is going to run off the Head Coach of Texas? 

and

I do think Herman should get another year but with all the resources we have is Beck and Orlando the best we can get?  I dont think so.  Herman needs to hire good Coordinators and not just "yes" men.  Thats just my opinion

and I never wanted Fatterson.  I dont think I saw anyone claiming they wanted that turd

 

[primal defense]

Herman will be here next year according to this/

BOHLS: TOM HERMAN, CHRIS DEL CONTE ARE FIRM ON HEAD COACH'S ABILITY TO FIX TEXAS

https://www.hookem.com/columns/bohls-tom-herman-chris-del-conte-firm-head-coachs-ability-fix-texas/

 

[Eastexhorn]

IMO  Baylors coaching has done a better job of coaching with less talent than Texas.

Any doubters?

 

[Sirhornsalot]

Where exactly did I see I wanted to hire Rhule over Herman. 

FACT:  I was the biggest Herman fan on this freaking board in Charlies last year.  I was thrilled when we hired Herman.

This team is NOT performing anywhere near last year and its not just the defense. 

Stop making assumptions based on a single comment about comparing two HC's in their third year. 

Texas has had 2 top 3 recruiting classes back to back.  Baylor was 35 & 29 or something like that. 

Are you saying Baylor has better talent and depth? 

Strange as it may sound, I don't think defense is the problem. They do well for a unit that lost 9 starters and have struggled with injuries.

For the life of me, I don't know why Orlando always gives up a score before he tightens things down. Why must the other team always get to score on the opening drive?

The offense is a head scratcher. They had no trouble scoring last year. But this year they simply aren't. The OL was supposed to dominate this year. Best QB in Big 12 was back. Promising WRs with depth. We even have 5 TEs that we never use.

I can't see a thing that stands in the way of a successful offense. All the tools are there. It's got to be the coaching.

 

[Captain Hookem]

Where exactly did I see I wanted to hire Rhule over Herman. 

FACT:  I was the biggest Herman fan on this freaking board in Charlies last year.  I was thrilled when we hired Herman.

This team is NOT performing anywhere near last year and its not just the defense. 

Stop making assumptions based on a single comment about comparing two HC's in their third year. 

Texas has had 2 top 3 recruiting classes back to back.  Baylor was 35 & 29 or something like that. 

Are you saying Baylor has better talent and depth? 

I can't keep track of what anyone said here and when. I pick up on statements to make larger points, trying to avoid any personal callouts which tend to not be productive. 

My point about Rhule is it's silly to pick a best case scenario to hold Herman to task, like we had this big debate at the time between Herman and Rhule. However there were certainly people a few years ago clamoring for Patterson going, "Why can't be more like TCU?..." Now it's "Why can't we be more like Baylor?..." To me it's the same argument, just a frustrated appeal about a school that happens to be on a good run. 

I don't follow Baylor, but they were recruiting at a pretty high level when the scandal broke. They had some high profile transfers at the time (of which we benefited some) but in general kept most of those classes together. 

If I had to guess on Baylor's current success, Rhule has done a better job of forming his team around what was available and what they've been able to recruit since. That includes coaches and players.

If I have to point to one glaring failure of Herman, it's his lack of building an offense around the talent and depth we had available. That also includes coaches and players. 

Some disagree, but I think Orlando has done a good job all things considered. Our failure over the last few games has been a collapse of the offense, when points allowed has dropped by a lot. 

To me that collapse centers around this scheme falling apart if Collin or Duvernay is out the lineup. At that point defenses can make Texas one dimensional, and then shut down the running game. We were not able to mix in Eagles, Epps, Smith, or any of the other good WR recruits to make this offense consistently move again. We also weren't able to develop a running game that was able to move the ball even when keyed on.

So when I say 'depth' I don't just mean how talented the next in line is, but the ability to have them ready to play. That's just a failure of the offensive staff on a lot of levels. 

 

[Eastexhorn]

Baylor Iowa St. vs Texas Fla. St Arkie all made coaching changes.

 

[83Dee]

In one sentence: Can we as a fanbase not be jerks by threatening to run off every coach after a bad weekend (or two)?

Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but chasing off coaches has replaced screaming for the backup QB as a favorite past time. All of my favorite coaches growing up (which were really just Landry and DKR) would've never been given a chance today. Outside my personal preferences, there's a lot of examples of other great coaches that needed... time. 

But look, I get it... One can always look around and find a team that's in a better situation. And yes, Rhule is has got Baylor playing at a really high level right now. And before Rhule tons of folks wanted Gary Patterson. And before that I forget who the flavor of the seasons were, but it really doesn't matter... there's always a shinier object somewhere else. 

Texas football is in a bad place right now, and as I said earlier in a serious 4 game slump. But Herman has coached many more than 4 games, and up until 4 games ago we were pretty optimistic about the program. Up until the point he's proven he can't fix things, it's deleterious to the entire program to talk about his replacement. 

To be clear there *are* times when we obviously have a lame duck coach... Strong after losing to Kansas, Mackovic after 'post concussion syndrome', David McWilliams (kinda after the '91 Cotton Bowl) but definitely not long into the '91 season.  All legit times to have seen quite enough. 

But we aren't there yet with Herman, so until we get there let's stop being jerks. It has a real effect on the program. Anytime our fanbase starts to act aggie it should be a time to reflect. 

I actually agree with much of what you say.  

Texas fans are historically quick to turn on a coach.  It can become so overwhelming that it kills a coaches ability to recruit talent.  I remember walking to a Texas game toward the end of the great Fred Akers era and seeing a sheet hanging out the window of a dorm room with “Fire Fred” painted on it.  I also agree with you it is premature to fire Herman after year 3. 

But not parting with Herman after this year is based entirely on the belief that firing after only 3 years looks bad.  If he comes back, UT should apologize to Charlie Strong for a premature firing.  “we aren’t there with Herman yet” (as opposed to Mackovic and McWilliams) I disagree.  I would suggest we are witnessing ineptitude on the field about as bad as any I have seen since the late 70s and that is saying a lot.  This ineptitude is in areas that I believe point directly at coaching.  For example: 

[SIZE=14.666666984558105px]> [/SIZE][SIZE=7pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Texas leads the Big 12 in missed tackles[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.666666984558105px]> [/SIZE][SIZE=7pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Texas leads the Big 12 in sacks allowed [/SIZE]

> Texas leads the Big 12 in penalties

This ^^^^ in year 3 of CTH!

Here are some further observations that I also believe point directly back to coaching and preparation:

[SIZE=14.666666984558105px]>[/SIZE][SIZE=7pt]  [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]I haven’t researched percentages but it seems our opponent scores a TD on their first possession just about every game!  If this isn’t preparation, I’m not sure what is?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.666666984558105px]> [/SIZE][SIZE=7pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]We are on year 3 of the worst special teams I have ever seen!  Specifically punt and Kickoff return.  How many years does it take to teach returners when to / and when to not field a punt? [/SIZE]

So, I get what you’re saying…. Crying in public doesn’t help matters.  But bringing Herman back - new coordinators or not is likely just delaying the inevitable.  

 

[83Dee]

Strange as it may sound, I don't think defense is the problem. They do well for a unit that lost 9 starters and have struggled with injuries.

For the life of me, I don't know why Orlando always gives up a score before he tightens things down. Why must the other team always get to score on the opening drive?

The offense is a head scratcher. They had no trouble scoring last year. But this year they simply aren't. The OL was supposed to dominate this year. Best QB in Big 12 was back. Promising WRs with depth. We even have 5 TEs that we never use.

I can't see a thing that stands in the way of a successful offense. All the tools are there. It's got to be the coaching.

I tentatively disagree.  

I don’t think Orlando is a good fit at a blue-Blood program.  I think his defense is designed for a directional school that doesn’t match up man for man.  It is all about deception and trickery and not about beating your man.  Blue bloods, for example, ought to be able to get a semblance of a pass rush from superior D Linemen.  I honestly don’t think pressure from the DL is in our design.  A safety led Texas in sacks last year if I’m not mistaken.  

I don’t think I should EVER look up and see THE University of Texas with a total of 1 defensive lineman on the field. This is a package we use at times on passing downs.   

I think offense, defense and last but NOT least special teams are the problem.  

 

[primal defense]

I tentatively disagree.  

I don’t think Orlando is a good fit at a blue-Blood program.  I think his defense is designed for a directional school that doesn’t match up man for man.  It is all about deception and trickery and not about beating your man.  Blue bloods, for example, ought to be able to get a semblance of a pass rush from superior D Linemen.  I honestly don’t think pressure from the DL is in our design.  A safety led Texas in sacks last year if I’m not mistaken.  

I don’t think I should EVER look up and see THE University of Texas with a total of 1 defensive lineman on the field. This is a package we use at times on passing downs.   

I think offense, defense and last but NOT least special teams are the problem.  

Right now we are ranked 102 out of 130 in sacking the QB.

 

[Bear19]

The way Orlando runs our three man defensive line does not provide any prevention against running around the end. Their tackles just block down on our defensive ends who are set up inside them. Supposedly a linebacker is supposed to cover end runs but that almost never happens. Guess who is the positional coach for linebackers. Orlando. They are the worst coached unit on the field.

 Both Orlando and Beck and several others should go, or Beck should at least be demoted.
 

 

[Captain Hookem]

I actually agree with much of what you say.  

Texas fans are historically quick to turn on a coach.  It can become so overwhelming that it kills a coaches ability to recruit talent.  I remember walking to a Texas game toward the end of the great Fred Akers era and seeing a sheet hanging out the window of a dorm room with “Fire Fred” painted on it.  I also agree with you it is premature to fire Herman after year 3. 

But not parting with Herman after this year is based entirely on the belief that firing after only 3 years looks bad.  If he comes back, UT should apologize to Charlie Strong for a premature firing.  “we aren’t there with Herman yet” (as opposed to Mackovic and McWilliams) I disagree.  I would suggest we are witnessing ineptitude on the field about as bad as any I have seen since the late 70s and that is saying a lot.  This ineptitude is in areas that I believe point directly at coaching.  For example: 

[SIZE=14.666666984558105px]> [/SIZE][SIZE=7pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Texas leads the Big 12 in missed tackles[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.666666984558105px]> [/SIZE][SIZE=7pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Texas leads the Big 12 in sacks allowed [/SIZE]

> Texas leads the Big 12 in penalties

This ^^^^ in year 3 of CTH!

Here are some further observations that I also believe point directly back to coaching and preparation:

[SIZE=14.666666984558105px]>[/SIZE][SIZE=7pt]  [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]I haven’t researched percentages but it seems our opponent scores a TD on their first possession just about every game!  If this isn’t preparation, I’m not sure what is?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.666666984558105px]> [/SIZE][SIZE=7pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]We are on year 3 of the worst special teams I have ever seen!  Specifically punt and Kickoff return.  How many years does it take to teach returners when to / and when to not field a punt? [/SIZE]

So, I get what you’re saying…. Crying in public doesn’t help matters.  But bringing Herman back - new coordinators or not is likely just delaying the inevitable.  

Yes, what you say is true. My defense is as much of the university as it is Herman... about the process and prospects for future coaches, etc.

However I disagree on Herman's ability to turn it around, but only by a matter of degrees. This is where stats really aren't much help, just an observational thing. 

If he is able to turn it around, it's impossible by changing both coordinators at the same time. I never recall a situation where that happened when a coach wasn't just buying time. And if we are going to change just one coordinator, that should be Beck. 

I believe Herman's biggest mistake upon accepting the job was salvaging Beck from osu. A year later Herman is having to take over play calling duties, or this play calling by committee - whatever the heck is going on. There just aren't many situations where a HC has successfully called plays for very long, which takes his focus away from everything else.

Either way he was stuck with Beck to try and make it work.  Which it did - but only in ideal conditions. Once the wheels got wobbly and injuries piled up, Herman got underwater quickly. Without a better offensive staff to get backups ready things absolutely fell apart.

Also (which is more observational) I give Orlando more credit than the stats will show. I think it's more difficult to replace the entire secondary than swapping out WRs. Without BJ, Sterns, Green, etc, the defense just didn't work. And since we play man most of the time, that's a lot more about instinct than just reps and really difficult to replace. 

However with all of those guys back, the defense has held the last 3 opponents to around 25 points... under their season averages. In the B12 that'll play. But only scoring around 20 on offense will not work. 

Overall it's hard to ignore the progress made the last 2 season. Herman was doing something right (since he sure didn't inherit institutional excellence from Strong). So I honestly think he can turn it around if he gets the right OC to help fix things. 

 

[Baron]

Yes, what you say is true. My defense is as much of the university as it is Herman... about the process and prospects for future coaches, etc.

However I disagree on Herman's ability to turn it around, but only by a matter of degrees. This is where stats really aren't much help, just an observational thing. 

If he is able to turn it around, it's impossible by changing both coordinators at the same time. I never recall a situation where that happened when a coach wasn't just buying time. And if we are going to change just one coordinator, that should be Beck. 

I believe Herman's biggest mistake upon accepting the job was salvaging Beck from osu. A year later Herman is having to take over play calling duties, or this play calling by committee - whatever the heck is going on. There just aren't many situations where a HC has successfully called plays for very long, which takes his focus away from everything else.

Either way he was stuck with Beck to try and make it work.  Which it did - but only in ideal conditions. Once the wheels got wobbly and injuries piled up, Herman got underwater quickly. Without a better offensive staff to get backups ready things absolutely fell apart.

Also (which is more observational) I give Orlando more credit than the stats will show. I think it's more difficult to replace the entire secondary than swapping out WRs. Without BJ, Sterns, Green, etc, the defense just didn't work. And since we play man most of the time, that's a lot more about instinct than just reps and really difficult to replace. 

However with all of those guys back, the defense has held the last 3 opponents to around 25 points... under their season averages. In the B12 that'll play. But only scoring around 20 on offense will not work. 

Overall it's hard to ignore the progress made the last 2 season. Herman was doing something right (since he sure didn't inherit institutional excellence from Strong). So I honestly think he can turn it around if he gets the right OC to help fix things. 

Herman needs to be given another year at the very least for some continuity. Texas can't afford to restart every 3 years. Hiring Beck in hind sight was a mistake. It has led to the offensive quagmire we are witnessing, the offense by committee isn't working and Herman's duties as a head coach have also seemed to suffer. I also think Mehringer, Warehime and Meekins need to go.

One thing I wonder is why everyone already knows Larry Fedora is being shown the door? Why is his job's disposition less secret than anyone else on the staff?

I think Orlando should be back as well, but Herman needs to kick him in the butt if things go downhill again. I get it with the injuries and inexperience but Orlando has to be able to adapt and modify his system on the fly.

 

[Bear19]

Orlando has shown that he cannot adapt. He needs to go.

 

[83Dee]

Orlando has shown that he cannot adapt. He needs to go.

Over the years it has amused me how Texas fans tend to fall in love with the DC and absolutely loathe the OC.   

i Know I’m in the minority here but if I were going to relieve a coordinator of their duties at UT, the DC would come first.  I am more troubled by what I see on that side of the ball. 

Well, unless you consider whoever runs the special teams a “coordinator.” 

 

[DMAC]

Orlando was very successful at UH. 

Orlando's defense shut down Lamar Jackson and Louisville and basically ended his Heisman campaign.

The one difference to me is Orlando had the luxury of having Ed Oliver on his DL which terrorized QB's and RB's.

We havent had a great pass rush guy in the middle since big Macolm Brown.  Our Dl recruiting has been shit for years.  Koburn is good but he isnt Ed Oliver type

 

[primal defense]

Herman needs to be given another year at the very least for some continuity. Texas can't afford to restart every 3 years. Hiring Beck in hind sight was a mistake. It has led to the offensive quagmire we are witnessing, the offense by committee isn't working and Herman's duties as a head coach have also seemed to suffer. I also think Mehringer, Warehime and Meekins need to go.

One thing I wonder is why everyone already knows Larry Fedora is being shown the door? Why is his job's disposition less secret than anyone else on the staff?

I think Orlando should be back as well, but Herman needs to kick him in the butt if things go downhill again. I get it with the injuries and inexperience but Orlando has to be able to adapt and modify his system on the fly.

There was no hind sight when Herman hired Beck. The majority of UT fans didn't like it just as we didn't like it when Strong hired Shawn Watson,

Larry Fedora is still getting North Carolina money. I don't believe he was shown the door.

If Orlando is not the answer and things go downhill then Herman may not get another chance next year.