Burnt Ends (2-16)

[Matt Cotcher]

Michigan State, Kansas, UConn, and UNC are all basketball-first schools. That makes them all a poor comparison to Texas.

I agree that UF is an accurate comparison. Billy D. is one of the top coaches in the nation, IMO. Comparing Barnes to Donovan is going to make Barnes look bad. Comparing almost anybody to Donovan is going to make them look bad.

As of today, Rick Barnes would be remembered for his overall improvement of the basketball program. Looking at one specific year, whether it ended in the Final Four or a first round loss, is too narrow of a lens to assess Barnes' impact at Texas.

Whether it's recruiting, facilities, ex-players in the NBA, NCAA tournament appearances, etc, what Rick Barnes has done for the program is hard to quantify. Texas basketball is vastly improved from where it was in 1998 when Barnes was hired. Similar to Mack Brown, that is how Barnes will be remembered.

 

[joeywa]

Michigan State, Kansas, UConn, and UNC are all basketball-first schools. That makes them all a poor comparison to Texas.

I agree that UF is an accurate comparison. Billy D. is one of the top coaches in the nation, IMO. Comparing Barnes to Donovan is going to make Barnes look bad. Comparing almost anybody to Donovan is going to make them look bad.

As of today, Rick Barnes would be remembered for his overall improvement of the basketball program. Looking at one specific year, whether it ended in the Final Four or a first round loss, is too narrow of a lens to assess Barnes' impact at Texas.

Whether it's recruiting, facilities, ex-players in the NBA, NCAA tournament appearances, etc, what Rick Barnes has done for the program is hard to quantify. Texas basketball is vastly improved from where it was in 1998 when Barnes was hired. Similar to Mack Brown, that is how Barnes will be remembered.

Did someone say 'facilities?' 

 

[Juan]

Good comparisons JG.  

Considering Texas is a football school, I believe Texas' benchmark should be on par or better with Ohio State and Florida.

i looked at tOSU but left them out because they removed a coach after some NCAA violations and were put on probation.  So, I didn't see it an an apples-to-apples comparison.

Nonetheless, in spite of this disadvantage, that program still outperformed Barnes' squads over the same time frame -- 1 Title Game (to Barnes' 0), 3 Final Fours (to Barnes' 1) and 8 B1G/tourney championships (to Barnes' 3)

 

[primal defense]

I have a nose. You have a nose. We all have noses. However, if I have to pick a nose, I'll pick the one getting paid for their nose.

Well good for you. In the future when there's a debate on which recruit UT should take then we don't need you to post your opinion, your choice is whoever is rated higher. How boring! 

If we had a thread on who is going to have a better college career SoSo or Chris Warren, my choice was Warren because as Charlie Strong said at NSD, he can run inside and outside. I know your choice is Soso, because that's what the recruiting folks had higher rated.

Duke, I would have had more respect if you would have disagreed with my opinion. If you ever have access to the internet, I would suggest you check on the highlights of the players involved yourself and give us your opinion. Unless you really like picking other people's noses.  

 

[streettopeschel]

It's undeniable Barnes is UTs greatest hoop coach all time. It's also undeniable that unlike football and baseball, the bar is pretty low.

We've been to one final four in my lifetime and I get mail from AARP. So yeah, that was pretty big.

For a 7 year run (02-08) he was good. Really good. But the subsequent 7 years hasn't been much.

Forget March for now. I think how they look tonight will be telling.

 

[echeese]

I still remember back in the early years of the 21st century the claim being made that Barnes was running a better program and doing more than Mack.

I laughed then. . . .

Sadly, the real loser to this was TEXAS. . . . . .

That we have the #11th paid HC in the nation but we are not even a Top 20 (consistently) program over the last decade . .. just bad.

Lest you think I embellish, here is how we have finished in the AP Top 25 the last 8 seasons

Unranked last year 13 votes

Unranked no votes

Unranked no votes

#8

Unranked 1 vote

Unranked no votes

#7

#11

Unranked

#12

Past 10 seasons. . . . 

 

[Juan]

Michigan State, Kansas, UConn, and UNC are all basketball-first schools. That makes them all a poor comparison to Texas......

While that is mostly true that those schools are considered basketball schools (MSU football has a decent history), I still dont see it as an excuse for Texas.  We have more built-in advantages than almost any school in the world, and it is my belief that we should be competitive in whatever we want to be competitive in.  I used to think Steve Patterson felt the same way and that he would, with his wealth of basketball experience, get us up the next rung on the basketball ladder in quick order.  But this now seems pretty dubious.

In any event, Barnes deserves credit for lots of 20-win seasons, regularly making the NCAA tourney and recruiting a handful of NBA lottery picks.  

But, he has also earned the criticism for --

(1) making our program synonymous with "one-and-done."

Under Barnes, we have lost in the 1st round 5 times (4 of those to lower seeds) and an additional 5 times in the 2nd round (the maj of those also to the lower seed).  Is this record really good enough for you guys? (it's not for me)

(2) Not winning our conference

(3) Never winning our conference tournament

(4) The disaster of 2012-13

(5) The offense - its boring, it plays to our weaknesses instead of our strengths, rarely adapts, needs an NBA-starter level PG to excel

(6) Not taking full advantage of LMA, KD and apparently Turner while he had them

 

[gmcc]

My thoughts on Barnes:  He was such an improvement over what we had, he seemed better than he is.  I have yet to see a Texas BB game where I felt Barnes actually out coached the other team.  Time & again, I watch teams with considerably less talent beat us-  if these same two teams were to play a pick up game the Texas squad would win easily, but they struggle in a actual game with our present coach.  Each season we start well but fade quickly.  If I'm not mistaken one season we were ranked #1 in the nation for one week and then finished poorly.  He seems to try and force the players to fit his system rather than utilize their skill set.

I hope this is his last season- I have felt this way for about 4 years.  I would love to see a young coach with some fire be given a chance.  No matter how great the coach, the game continues to move and after a while the coach doesn't. 

I hope the song is correct  "A Change is gonna Come"

 

[streettopeschel]

Juan, I've heard the 'buiilt in advantages' argument for basketball before. I don't know what they are. I know what they're NOT. Little tradition, mediocre fan support, subpar arena. The Dukes and KUs of the world have all that and more.

We are who we are. We'd all like a great program but for many (most) it's just not that important.

 

[Juan]

.... We are who we are.....

We are, but we dont have to continue to be

 

[drgilbert]

I think the biggest "built in advantage " is the same as football. The state of Texas has an abundance of basketball talent. We just need to win and they will come. I also think the fan base will grow if we win. I think we need a new coach.

 

[echeese]

My thoughts on Barnes:  He was such an improvement over what we had, he seemed better than he is.  

I am not a "basketball guy" so serious question.. ..was he actually better than Penders?

Or was he just not a sleeze bag? 

 

[Worster1]

A new arena and being closer to campus if possible might help. 

Better / more creative promotion & marketing by Bellmont & Patterson could help with attendance.

A new coach could / should bring new life, energy and excitement back to the program.

But at the end of the day winning cures everything, period. 

 

[Juan]

I think the biggest "built in advantage " is the same as football. The state of Texas has an abundance of basketball talent. We just need to win and they will come. I also think the fan base will grow if we win. I think we need a new coach.

I agree with that but he raised a good point about the arena

I never liked the FEC and disagree with this new arena idea

The FEC was there when i got there, but I saw some games in Gregory Gym -- and it was fun (and hot too).  I looked up capacity and it says 4,000, which is more than I would even have guessed

I admit I get jealous sometimes when watching some of these crazy crowds in the smaller venues, and the high-level student participation

I dont know if we will ever have anything like that.  But one way to make sure we never do is this new downtown/City of Austin/Longhorn Arena

 

[Juan]

I am not a "basketball guy" so serious question.. ..was he actually better than Penders?

Or was he just not a sleeze bag? 

Barnes has certainly been more consistent (and the "not a drunk" aspect helps alot too)

I know people will disagree with me on this (and I dont care) but Penders' squads were more fun

Part of it was perhaps because we were usually the underdog.  And part of it was stylistic --> 3-guards, fast-pace, lots of shots.  Somehow, the players seemed to have more character too, or maybe it was that they were characters?  Barnes' offenses often cause me physical pain to watch.  Still, Barnes' record is much better on paper than Penders'.  One last thing -- with the current rules in college ball now and how the games are called, there are alot of boring offenses out there.

 

[streettopeschel]

We are, but we dont have to continue to be

you left out the part where 'it's just not that important' to enough people. you disagree?

 

[streettopeschel]

A new arena and being closer to campus if possible might help. 

Better / more creative promotion & marketing by Bellmont & Patterson could help with attendance.

A new coach could / should bring new life, energy and excitement back to the program.

But at the end of the day winning cures everything, period. 

playing devil's advocate a bit...

how much closer to campus than MLK and Red River would it have to be? isn't that virtually out the back door from the biggest dorm in the world (or whatever Jester is).

here's a little factoid i found once before when this subject came up. following our first final four in 50+ years and with a preseason top-10 team returning, we drew a little over 6K to our season opener the following year. fans weren't exactly camping out Duke-style.

sure, a new coach and new arena would create short term buzz. hey, when the drum was new and abe lemons was new and fresh there was buzz. for a while. we've just never sustained it. 

 

[TeamMayhall]

No caption needed

[Tweet =https://twitter.com/cecil__cherry3/status/564988534109396995%5D]https://twitter.com/cecil__cherry3/status/564988534109396995]

 

[Juan]

you left out the part where 'it's just not that important' to enough people. you disagree?

I was allowing for a scintilla of optimism

 

[primal defense]

I had Dickson higher than duvernay but they came really close to one another. They are one spot away on the overall rankings and pretty much 1a and 1b

I didn't mean to insult your list, I should have said most of the recruiting agencies. Rivals and 24/7 has Duvernay over Dickson, while Scout has Dickson as the #3 WR in the nation and Duvernay #4. Since Duvernay and Dickson seem to have similar talent, I go with the guy who has video game numbers. When I first saw Dickson had 39 TDs on 89 catches and over 2100 yards, I thought it was a misprint. That's what I call Production.

Rivals has Dickson as a 3 star recruit, which I fine funny. Rivals had Breckyn Hager as a 2 star recruit this year which made it look like Hager was a legacy recruit. However, after NSD Brian Jean-Mary named Hager as his most underrated recruit. Charlie Strong said that every 2015 recruit we signed has the ability to be a starting player at Texas. CS also said that Hager was going to be huge.