Big 12 vs. SEC thread

[doc longhorn]

The recruiting frenzy has gotten me thinking about this more than usual.  All of us know aggy sells the SEC big time and it appears to work quite a bit.

And all of us know that the SEC is WAAAYYY overrated.  I guarantee you, if Bama was in the Big 12, they would never go undefeated.  Saban struggles with prolific spreads as it is - even with the best talent that money can buy.

So, what advantage does the SEC really have over the Big 12?  Because I believe there is only one and it is a humongous advantage.

Fan Support.

With the exception of Kentucky, football games in the SEC are nearly always sold out.  And, if the big name teams play in Kentucky, THEY are sold out.

Kids love the environment and I don't blame them.

Compare the SEC teams to TCU or Baylor, or Kansas or Iowa State.  Pretty sad, isn't it?

Oh, sure, when OU or Texas plays these teams our fan base will usually help fill their stadiums.  But, how about when Kansas plays Iowa State?

Compare THAT game to, say, Miss State playing Tennessee.

There are many that say - let's go to the PAC.  But what is the difference - other than a gawdawful travel distance and a debilitating time difference?  Colorado vs. TTU is a beaut.  Or Utah vs. Kansas.  You KNOW those fan bases are rabid.  :lol:

Get my drift?

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

You nailed it, Doc

Rabid fan support really is their only advantage, but what about when Vanderbilt plays Kentucky? Overall, their fans are more passionate than Big12 fans. Their large state universities have built-in advantages too; history, enrollment, location, resources, etc.

Their on-field "superiority" is indeed an ESPN and media fabricated myth. Give @SEC_Exposed a follow on Twitter or follow their blog. 

https://secexposed.wordpress.com/2014/12/11/college-football-playoff-clown-committee-sec-media-bias-and-the-wonders-of-criminal-athlete-recruitment/

— Twitter API (@twitterapi) November 7, 2011

 

[castlebravo1]

In my opinion, here are the places where the SEC beats the Big12:

1.  Fanbase.  At the end of the day, fanbase drives everything except on the field performance.  Recruiting, media coverage, money coming into the program, etc.

2.  Quality and quantity of D1 athletes inside the SEC footprint is better than the BIG12, in general.

3.  Their MNC track record since 1998 (BCS era).  SEC - 8, Big12 - 2

4.  Depth in conference.  The SEC has many more teams that most would thank as NC viable on a year in and year out basis (Tenn, UGA, UF, ALA, AUB, LSU).  The Big 12 has 2 - UT and OU.

Having seen games at several Big12 stadiums and many SEC stadiums, I would much rather see UT play on the road at Fayetteville, Tuscaloosa, or Knoxville, than Waco, Ft Worth, or Manhattan KS.  To me, a UT vs any other BIG12 team other than OU is just not big time football.

 

[doc longhorn]

In my opinion, here are the places where the SEC beats the Big12:

1.  Fanbase.  At the end of the day, fanbase drives everything except on the field performance.  Recruiting, media coverage, money coming into the program, etc.

2.  Quality and quantity of D1 athletes inside the SEC footprint is better than the BIG12, in general.

3.  Their MNC track record since 1998 (BCS era).  SEC - 8, Big12 - 2

4.  Depth in conference.  The SEC has many more teams that most would thank as NC viable on a year in and year out basis (Tenn, UGA, UF, ALA, AUB, LSU).  The Big 12 has 2 - UT and OU.

Having seen games at several Big12 stadiums and many SEC stadiums, I would much rather see UT play on the road at Fayetteville, Tuscaloosa, or Knoxville, than Waco, Ft Worth, or Manhattan KS.  To me, a UT vs any other BIG12 team other than OU is just not big time football.

I think we can thank Deloss Dodds for screwing the Big 12.  He convinced the other Big 12 teams that we could get Notre Dame and so we turned down overtures from FSU, Clemson and Louisville.

A colossal mistake and may, in the end, be the demise of the Big 12.

I liked the idea of adding WVU, but I don't understand adding TCU.  What value did they bring?  They can't even fill their pitiful stadium - BEFORE they did all the renovations.

And, no, I would never court Miami.  They are the UH of Florida.  A commuter school with no fan following.  Hell, they held last years spring game in a HIGH SCHOOL stadium - and couldn't fill those stands either.  They gained their reputation, in the 90's, by recruiting the Florida penitentiaries.

I would take Central Florida in a heart beat.  Dang sure over TCU.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

I think we can thank Deloss Dodds for screwing the Big 12.  He convinced the other Big 12 teams that we could get Notre Dame and so we turned down overtures from FSU, Clemson and Louisville.

A colossal mistake and may, in the end, be the demise of the Big 12.

I liked the idea of adding WVU, but I don't understand adding TCU.  What value did they bring?  They can't even fill their pitiful stadium - BEFORE they did all the renovations.

And, no, I would never court Miami.  They are the UH of Florida.  A commuter school with no fan following.  Hell, they held last years spring game in a HIGH SCHOOL stadium - and couldn't fill those stands either.  They gained their reputation, in the 90's, by recruiting the Florida penitentiaries.

I would take Central Florida in a heart beat.  Dang sure over TCU.

Yeah, I really didn't understand choosing TCU over Louisville in spite of the Frogs recent BcS success. Selfishly, I like having TCU in the Big12 as a DFW resident, but they're not a better overall program than UL. The Cards just have a much better, more well-rounded athletic department. Plus, it gives WVU a rival, gets the Big12 into a new market and the SEC footprint. Obviously, FSU and Clemson are no-brainers.

I recommend that y'all give @Big12Fanatic a follow, too. They're gonna analyze expansion candidates for the Big12 in a multi-part series. http://big12fanatics.com/expansion-project-part-building-foundation/

 

[castlebravo1]

I think we can thank Deloss Dodds for screwing the Big 12.  He convinced the other Big 12 teams that we could get Notre Dame and so we turned down overtures from FSU, Clemson and Louisville.

A colossal mistake and may, in the end, be the demise of the Big 12.

I liked the idea of adding WVU, but I don't understand adding TCU.  What value did they bring?  They can't even fill their pitiful stadium - BEFORE they did all the renovations.

And, no, I would never court Miami.  They are the UH of Florida.  A commuter school with no fan following.  Hell, they held last years spring game in a HIGH SCHOOL stadium - and couldn't fill those stands either.  They gained their reputation, in the 90's, by recruiting the Florida penitentiaries.

I would take Central Florida in a heart beat.  Dang sure over TCU.

I don't think the Big 12 can honestly be salvaged.  Adding directional schools just reinforces the notion that it's a second rate conference.  I'd be for us joining the SEC.  The whole "cultural fit", "academic fit" BS is nonsense.  I think that there are a lot of Texas fans who like being a big fist in a little pond rather than one of many big fish in a big pond.  It's this sense of Texas being different and special that has gotten us into this mess in the  first place.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

I don't think the Big 12 can honestly be salvaged.  Adding directional schools just reinforces the notion that it's a second rate conference.  I'd be for us joining the SEC.  The whole "cultural fit", "academic fit" BS is nonsense.  I think that there are a lot of Texas fans who like being a big fist in a little pond rather than one of many big fish in a big pond.  It's this sense of Texas being different and special that has gotten us into this mess in the  first place.

This hand-wringing over conference affiliation may be a big to-do about nothing soon if the P5 breaks away and realigns into NFL-like geographic divisions.

I'd hate to join the SEC because we'd never hear the end of it from aggie. Gimme the ACC or Pac12 if we're desperate to move.

 

[bcherry168]

My thought is that in spite of what has been pointed out in this thread, that Texas will do very well when we start winning again. If we win the Big 12, we will be in the hunt for the playoff almost every year if we have no more than 1 loss.

Anything we do now other than add a qualified couple of teams to the Big 12 will not help us in terms of revenue or ability to make the playoff.

Ultimately, there will have to be a complete reorganization of the top 50 or 60 teams, but it won't be soon. We are taking some baby steps this year. More will be required.

At some point we will need to have four conferences, each with a championship game that will feed the winning teams into the playoff.

It will take time. Texas moving into another conference won't help.

 

[doc longhorn]

I don't think the Big 12 can honestly be salvaged.  Adding directional schools just reinforces the notion that it's a second rate conference.  I'd be for us joining the SEC.  The whole "cultural fit", "academic fit" BS is nonsense.  I think that there are a lot of Texas fans who like being a big fist in a little pond rather than one of many big fish in a big pond.  It's this sense of Texas being different and special that has gotten us into this mess in the  first place.

I don't think Texas would ever consider joining the SEC.  For one, we have too many cultural snobs and for two, we won't play second fiddle to anyone or be dictated to by the likes of Slive.

Thirdly, even if we wanted to join, aggy, Arky and LSU would probably black ball us.  Bama as well.

I've said this before, Texas and OU have their own little fiefdom in the Big 12.  And they are enjoying the monetary advantage it gives them. Without them, the Big 12 is nothing.  This is what makes the Big 12 shaky.

Even though the big dogs rule the SEC, PAC and the B1G, their conferences still have overall strength.  Not so with the Big 12 - OU and Texas are its lifeblood.

Baylor, OSU and TCU would never be able to save it. 

Just remember this - it has always applied and it always will.  If there is a monetary advantage to expanding or bolting - UT will do it in a heartbeat.

If going to the PAC, B1G, SEC or even the ACC means more money in our jeans - we will be long gone.

 

[DocHorn]

My thought is that in spite of what has been pointed out in this thread, that Texas will do very well when we start winning again. If we win the Big 12, we will be in the hunt for the playoff almost every year if we have no more than 1 loss.

Anything we do now other than add a qualified couple of teams to the Big 12 will not help us in terms of revenue or ability to make the playoff.

Ultimately, there will have to be a complete reorganization of the top 50 or 60 teams, but it won't be soon. We are taking some baby steps this year. More will be required.

At some point we will need to have four conferences, each with a championship game that will feed the winning teams into the playoff.

It will take time. Texas moving into another conference won't help.

Indeed, its all about winning, no matter what the conference

 

[castlebravo1]

Indeed, its all about winning, no matter what the conference

"Winning" wasn't good enough for TCU or Baylor.  If you are satisfied with padding a 10-2 record with wins over crap schools, then we should stay in the Big12.  If you value competition, the hype and pageantry of big time football, they we need to move to a conference that provides us with more credible opponents on the opposite sideline than the Big12 does.

 

[DocHorn]

"Winning" wasn't good enough for TCU or Baylor.  If you are satisfied with padding a 10-2 record with wins over crap schools, then we should stay in the Big12.  If you value competition, the hype and pageantry of big time football, they we need to move to a conference that provides us with more credible opponents on the opposite sideline than the Big12 does.

No offense to Baylor or TCU, they are Baylor and TCU without a long traditional hx of excellence

If we had been 11-1 there is no doubt in my mind we would have been in the Playoff

If TCU hadn't choked against BU, they would have been in 

You are framing a narrative I don't agree with.  Conference football power goes up and down as its major teams do.  I would prefer the PAC or the SEC but we are in the Big 12 and will likely remain there for a while.  

If we win, we will have an opportunity to win championships, both conference and national

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

"Winning" wasn't good enough for TCU or Baylor.  If you are satisfied with padding a 10-2 record with wins over crap schools, then we should stay in the Big12.  If you value competition, the hype and pageantry of big time football, they we need to move to a conference that provides us with more credible opponents on the opposite sideline than the Big12 does.

These "crap schools" are leading the Big12 right now.

I don't get what is so attractive about playing Ole Miss & Miss State. We can schedule Arky and LSU OOC, too. To Doc's point, UT ain't ever gonna take its orders from Birmingham. Not happening.

When we're competing for championships, UT sells out every stadium in the Big12. I couldn't care less if KU vs Iowa State doesn't.

 

[doc longhorn]

These "crap schools" are leading the Big12 right now.

I don't get what is so attractive about playing Ole Miss & Miss State. We can schedule Arky and LSU OOC, too. To Doc's point, UT ain't ever gonna take its orders from Birmingham. Not happening.

When we're competing for championships, UT sells out every stadium in the Big12. I couldn't care less if KU vs Iowa State doesn't.

I understand your point of view, but the sad fact is we NEED KU and Iowa State selling out their games.  That's the problem with the Big 12 in comparison to the SEC. 

The curious thing about the SEC is teams like Tennessee or Mississippi State don't have to have winning seasons to fill their stadiums.  They do anyway.  It's true the bottom feeders like Kentucky and Vandy struggle to fill THEIR stadiums.  But, hell, Kentucky is a basketball school anyway and Vandy needs to be in the Ivy league.

But, in Dochorn's favor, winning definitely can change things, in a major conference.  Look at Baylor.  It wasn't that long ago they had a permanent tarp in one end zone.  Since they have been winning, they have actually even built a new stadium. (They still struggle to fill it, however)

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

The curious thing about the SEC is teams like Tennessee or Mississippi State don't have to have winning seasons to fill their stadiums.  They do anyway.  It's true the bottom feeders like Kentucky and Vandy struggle to fill THEIR stadiums.  But, hell, Kentucky is a basketball school anyway and Vandy needs to be in the Ivy league.

I could argue that both Kansas and Iowa State are basketball schools, too. 

I believe NFL-like geographic alignment is coming. It's just gonna take time to overcome anti-trust laws, break down conference "fiefdoms", and political barriers. Who knows if it will be 5 years or 20?

 

[DocHorn]

I could argue that both Kansas and Iowa State are basketball schools, too. 

I believe NFL-like geographic alignment is coming. It's just gonna take time to overcome anti-trust laws, break down conference "fiefdoms", and political barriers. Who knows if it will be 5 years or 20?

Yea, I suspect it is 15 to 20 yrs away

 

[doc longhorn]

I could argue that both Kansas and Iowa State are basketball schools, too. 

I believe NFL-like geographic alignment is coming. It's just gonna take time to overcome anti-trust laws, break down conference "fiefdoms", and political barriers. Who knows if it will be 5 years or 20?

LOL - and you would be right about KU and ISU.  that's the problem.  The Big 12 only has 10 schools and one fifth of them are basketball schools.

Okay, what Big 12 schools are, normally, more likely to sell out every one of their games?

Texas

OU

That leaves:

KSU

KU

ISU

TCU

BU

WVU

TTU

OSU

What schools will cause the 8 dwarfs to sell out?:

Texas

OU

See the problem?

But it goes even deeper.  Which Big 12 schools are more likely to get national media coverage?

You guessed it:

Texas

OU

Hell, Texas was so popular it got its own network.

Now, I realize that OU and Texas are both down right now - as far as football excellence.  But we all know that won't last forever.

We, also, know that TCU and Baylor being up won't last forever either.

As the old saying goes "The sun shines on every dogs butt every once in a while". 

 

[streettopeschel]

My thought is that in spite of what has been pointed out in this thread, that Texas will do very well when we start winning again. If we win the Big 12, we will be in the hunt for the playoff almost every year if we have no more than 1 loss.

Anything we do now other than add a qualified couple of teams to the Big 12 will not help us in terms of revenue or ability to make the playoff.

Ultimately, there will have to be a complete reorganization of the top 50 or 60 teams, but it won't be soon. We are taking some baby steps this year. More will be required.

At some point we will need to have four conferences, each with a championship game that will feed the winning teams into the playoff.

It will take time. Texas moving into another conference won't help.

agree with this. UT is 36-29 over the last 5-years. that ain't because we're in a bad conference. it's because we've been bad.

 

[J.B. TexasEx]

LOL - and you would be right about KU and ISU.  that's the problem.  The Big 12 only has 10 schools and one fifth of them are basketball schools.

IDK, Doc

K-State, WVU, Tech, & OSU draw well for home football games. BU will too while they're good.