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Recruiting versus coaching discussion


MBHORNSFAN
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Since recruiting is the hot topic lets discuss which one is the most important. I say recruiting talent is 70% of winning & good coaching is 30%. My point find one national champion ever in NCAA football that has ever won a championship with majority 3* starters. I saw this post on OB stars for starters between FSU & AUburn

6 - 5 stars (14%)

25 - 4 stars (57%)

13 - 3 stars (29%)

0 - 2 stars or below

 

71% are 4* or better. I feel very confident that this is the trend for all past games as well. I agree that Mack had great recruiting classes that under performed but many of those classes performed at high level even with average coaching. Lets discuss

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FSU and Auburn both have great coaches though. I think you need both. It's more about developing the stars when they get here.

 

I agree my point is you have to recruit 4* & 5* and develop them. I do not see any championship teams with mostly 3* players being developed and coached up and winning championships.

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Talent is for sure a factor, I mean Florida had a poor on filed product with Ron Zook (sp), but they recruited very well, when they got coaching (Urban) in there they were pretty good from the go, and then Urban and co started to win and recruit will. Texas has recruited reasonably well actually, there is some talent on the team, that is why Mack pointed to this past season and next season as the "ones to look out for". Unfortunately injuries, poor preparation, and a crappy culture was too much to overcome. I am interested to see what Coach Strong and co do w some of these guys and if they are able to get these guys to realize their potential.

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find one national champion ever in NCAA football that has ever won a championship with majority 3* starters

 

Find me a national champion that did it with great recruits and a s#!tty coach.

 

Good recruiting is a prerequisite, but you've got to be very strong on both.

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Recruiting definitely matters. It's rare for a team like TCU or Boise State to be successful against the bigger schools when you are relying on 3* talent.

 

That said, coaching and development plays a MONSTER factor. FSU just won a title because not only were they recruiting well, they were identifying the talent correctly and then developing that talent at an unreal level. Alabama was doing that under Saban before they got on this roll and started practically signing whoever they want from around the country.

 

I think it's shortsighted to worry too much about recruiting right now. Strong has been on the job for less than 2 months. When we end up inking Nelson and Ford tomorrow (IMO) the class will end up being ok and that's about all it was going to be even with Mack. This class was never going to finish in the top 10 no matter what the coaching situation was.

 

The 2015 class is definitely not off to a great start after losing some kids, but there's plenty of time. I believe that the 2016 class is going to be the first real test to see where Strong's ability will be in state. He's always been a very good recruiter and has done an excellent job of developing his talent. The best thing he has is that he will have the ability to go out of state to fill needs if he's unable to do so within the state of Texas. With Mack it was always Texas or bust. The past 2 years when aggy has been stronger Mack has been unable to fill the different needs anywhere else and that has impacted the talent level tremendously. Strong can go to Florida or Georgia or other places in the southeast because of guys like Rumph and Jean-Mary and Vaughn and compete for big time talent that Mack couldn't or wasn't willing to compete for.

 

What else could Strong have done this year? He was completely hand strung from the start since Mack brought in the majority of the class for official's the weekend he was forced out. That killed us with Alaka and has made it much more difficult from the start. And 2015 is going to be tough because of the perception of the SEC and aggy and the head start they now have on us. The Junior Days upcoming and this next season are going to be crucial. I'm not expecting us to be dominant, but we need to go out and be successful on offense and defense and be able to sale the future. 9-10 wins would be ideal. It also wouldn't hurt for aggy to take another step back.

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Also, it's important to note that you're talking about * recruiting rankings of starters, not the overall recruiting class.

 

Many of our "lesser" recruits will never become starters. And theoretically you don't need that many 4* and 5* recruits to regularly field a team full of them, you just need those high ranked recruits to start a lot of years.

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Gene Chizik.

 

Damn it! That's a good point..... I guess everything is out the window when you snag (purchase?) a 5++* QB recruit who turns out to be better than advertised.

 

Too often people talk about a QB carrying his team, usually they're not thinking about the coach too.

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Disagree with Mack reference to some extent. He essentially locked the TX boarder and cherry picked nationally (arguably not enough though). This is what Strong said he would do. We appear to be going nationally, but maybe this out of necessity.

 

Mack failed to cherry pick nationally. The last time he did that was the 2001 class and that class burned him so bad because of injuries and flame outs that he basically stopped recruiting nationally. It got worse following the national title. At that point Mack basically just took kids who were willing to commit on the spot and that required next to zero work from him or his staff. Go look at the classes following the 2005 title season and how bad they were. There was ZERO effort from the staff to expand the borders. The staff more or less just took the best in Texas and maybe a guy from Oklahoma or Louisiana on occasion, but for the most part the staff never looked out of state. If a kid from out of state wanted to come to Texas he basically had to pay his own way to a Junior Day and practically beg the staff for an offer.

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Since recruiting is the hot topic lets discuss which one is the most important. I say recruiting talent is 70% of winning & good coaching is 30%. My point find one national champion ever in NCAA football that has ever won a championship with majority 3* starters. I saw this post on OB stars for starters between FSU & AUburn

6 - 5 stars (14%)

25 - 4 stars (57%)

13 - 3 stars (29%)

0 - 2 stars or below

 

71% are 4* or better. I feel very confident that this is the trend for all past games as well. I agree that Mack had great recruiting classes that under performed but many of those classes performed at high level even with average coaching. Lets discuss

 

Gosh damit. .. yall trying to rain on my parade. I refuse to let facts and a average recruiting class to get in the way of my sun shine and daffodils.

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I'll play. Don't have to time to do much digging during lunch but here goes

 

1984 BYU

1990 Colorado AND Georgia Tech

94, 95 and 97 Nebraska (smattering of 4 and 5s and then Nebraska's vaunted walk-on program)

2000 Oklahoma

 

Obviously in the 2000s, with USC, Texas, LSU, Florida and Alabama, on field success breeds recruiting success.

 

I just don't see your point with regard to a new coach. We'll take a one year hit with a class that's ranked 12-18. If Strong recruits top 5 in the next two years, we'll still be OK.

 

Why don't you compare this to Mack's first class? It's also was top 15-20 even though Mack had two full months to get his own recruits. We got good buzz with Ricky's Heiman season and a winning record and his next recruiting classes were great. Let's just wait till next year's class before claiming the sky is falling.

 

PS You do realize we're in rebuilding mode right? I'm not expecting a NC next year but maybe I'm just a realistic outlier.

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Let's not act like Texas isn't going to have talent next year. We have guys who were highly recruited coming out of high school:

 

QB: David Ash (3) or Tyrone Swoopes (4)

RB: Malcolm Brown (5)

WR: Jaxon Shipley (4)

WR: Kendall Sanders (4)

WR: Marcus Johnson (4)

TE: Geoff Swaim (3)

OT: Desmond Harrison (3)

OG: Sedrick Flowers (4)

C: Dom Espinosa (4)

OG: Curtis Riser (4) or Darius James (4)

OT: Kent Perkins (4)

 

DE: Cedric Reed (4)

DT: Malcom Brown (5)

DT: Desmond Jackson (4)

DE: Shiro Davis (4)

LB: Jordan Hicks (5)

LB: Peter Jinkens (4)

LB: Steve Edmond (4)

CB: Quandre Diggs (4)

CB: Duke Thomas (4)

S: Mykkele Thompson (4)

S: Josh Turner (4)

 

With Ash at QB, we have 3 5*'s (14%), 15 4*'s (68%) and 4 3*'s (18%)

 

With Swoopes at QB, we have 3 5*'s (14%), 16 4*'s (73%) and 3 3*'s (14%)

 

Of those starting 22, half are seniors if you include Ash. Their backups:

 

QB: Swoopes (4)

WR: Jacorey Warrick (4)

TE: MJ McFarland -- I guess -- (4)

OT: Kennedy Estelle -- if eligible -- (4) or Camron Hughes -- if he's still around -- (4)

C: Jake Raulerson (4)

 

DE: Bryce Cottrell (3)

DT: Hassan Ridgeway (4)

LB: Tim Cole (4)

LB: Dalton Santos (3)

CB: Bryson Echols (4)

S: Leroy Scott (3)

 

The cupboard isn't bare. The bulk of the upperclassmen in the program were highly ranked recruits. If Wickline can find a QB and turn water into wine on the OL like he's done for years and Strong can turn the defense into the machine he has everywhere he's been we aren't far off.

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Let's not act like Texas isn't going to have talent next year. We have guys who were highly recruited coming out of high school:

 

QB: David Ash (3) or Tyrone Swoopes (4)

RB: Malcolm Brown (5)

WR: Jaxon Shipley (4)

WR: Kendall Sanders (4)

WR: Marcus Johnson (4)

TE: Geoff Swaim (3)

OT: Desmond Harrison (3)

OG: Sedrick Flowers (4)

C: Dom Espinosa (4)

OG: Curtis Riser (4) or Darius James (4)

OT: Kent Perkins (4)

 

DE: Cedric Reed (4)

DT: Malcom Brown (5)

DT: Desmond Jackson (4)

DE: Shiro Davis (4)

LB: Jordan Hicks (5)

LB: Peter Jinkens (4)

LB: Steve Edmond (4)

CB: Quandre Diggs (4)

CB: Duke Thomas (4)

S: Mykkele Thompson (4)

S: Josh Turner (4)

 

With Ash at QB, we have 3 5*'s (14%), 15 4*'s (68%) and 4 3*'s (18%)

 

With Swoopes at QB, we have 3 5*'s (14%), 16 4*'s (73%) and 3 3*'s (14%)

 

Of those starting 22, half are seniors if you include Ash. Their backups:

 

QB: Swoopes (4)

WR: Jacorey Warrick (4)

TE: MJ McFarland -- I guess -- (4)

OT: Kennedy Estelle -- if eligible -- (4) or Camron Hughes -- if he's still around -- (4)

C: Jake Raulerson (4)

 

DE: Bryce Cottrell (3)

DT: Hassan Ridgeway (4)

LB: Tim Cole (4)

LB: Dalton Santos (3)

CB: Bryson Echols (4)

S: Leroy Scott (3)

 

The cupboard isn't bare. The bulk of the upperclassmen in the program were highly ranked recruits. If Wickline can find a QB and turn water into wine on the OL like he's done for years and Strong can turn the defense into the machine he has everywhere he's been we aren't far off.

 

 

good point. . . .key (as you said) is QB play. . . .

 

This D was DAMN good after GR took over. . .other than OSU . .frankly pretty dominate. . .

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I'm not worried in any way, shape or form with the defense. I like Greg Robinson and he's a very good DC, but I think Strong is a much better college DC than GR. I think Strong is as good of a defensive mind as any coach in the college game so we will be fine on that side of the ball.

 

I think we are a year away on offense. It's going to take that long to implement what Wickline and those guys are trying to do on that side of the ball so I think this year we will see some good things, but it won't be until 2015 until we really see where they are going to go with it.

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Let's not act like Texas isn't going to have talent next year. We have guys who were highly recruited coming out of high school:

 

QB: David Ash (3) or Tyrone Swoopes (4)

RB: Malcolm Brown (5)

WR: Jaxon Shipley (4)

WR: Kendall Sanders (4)

WR: Marcus Johnson (4)

TE: Geoff Swaim (3)

OT: Desmond Harrison (3)

OG: Sedrick Flowers (4)

C: Dom Espinosa (4)

OG: Curtis Riser (4) or Darius James (4)

OT: Kent Perkins (4)

 

DE: Cedric Reed (4)

DT: Malcom Brown (5)

DT: Desmond Jackson (4)

DE: Shiro Davis (4)

LB: Jordan Hicks (5)

LB: Peter Jinkens (4)

LB: Steve Edmond (4)

CB: Quandre Diggs (4)

CB: Duke Thomas (4)

S: Mykkele Thompson (4)

S: Josh Turner (4)

 

With Ash at QB, we have 3 5*'s (14%), 15 4*'s (68%) and 4 3*'s (18%)

 

With Swoopes at QB, we have 3 5*'s (14%), 16 4*'s (73%) and 3 3*'s (14%)

 

Of those starting 22, half are seniors if you include Ash. Their backups:

 

QB: Swoopes (4)

WR: Jacorey Warrick (4)

TE: MJ McFarland -- I guess -- (4)

OT: Kennedy Estelle -- if eligible -- (4) or Camron Hughes -- if he's still around -- (4)

C: Jake Raulerson (4)

 

DE: Bryce Cottrell (3)

DT: Hassan Ridgeway (4)

LB: Tim Cole (4)

LB: Dalton Santos (3)

CB: Bryson Echols (4)

S: Leroy Scott (3)

 

The cupboard isn't bare. The bulk of the upperclassmen in the program were highly ranked recruits. If Wickline can find a QB and turn water into wine on the OL like he's done for years and Strong can turn the defense into the machine he has everywhere he's been we aren't far off.

 

I agree that we have lots of 4* talent on campus right now. I am concerned about the trend now. If Strong can have a great 2014 I think he has a chance to turn it but if for some reason we struggle and go like 7-5.. We are in deep trouble.

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Mike I think it's too early to worry about any trends regarding Strong. The guy has been a good recruiter at every stop he's coached at. It's unfair to judge him based on results within 2 months on the job.

 

The first recruiting class that I think we can really judge Strong on regarding the in state talent is going to be 2016. 2015 is another class that he's going to have to play major catch up on. Mack had already found a way to screw up the early momentum we had with that class and Strong is stepping into a situation nearly as tough as 2014 has been for him. Sumlin and Briles and Miles have developed of relationships with the 2015 kids for a solid year plus that Strong is having to try and develop on the fly. If you're going to be critical of anyone for the situation that we are in, Mack and the powers that be who waited so long to get rid of him are the main culprits.

 

At the end of the day I understand why so many people are pessimistic right now. And I think some of it is deserved. We are going to struggle more in state than we have in years. But if we recoup those losses with kids from Florida, California, Georgia, Louisiana and the like and finish with a top 5-7 class are we going to complain? To be honest I'd rather recruit more from those places because I think there's an advantage to going after kids from there. Texas high school recruits are generally much more developed than kids from lower income Louisiana and Florida high school's. When they get into college and strength train and work with better coaching for the first times in their lives they develop into monsters. LSU has been doing this with New Orleans kids for years.

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Mike I think it's too early to worry about any trends regarding Strong. The guy has been a good recruiter at every stop he's coached at. It's unfair to judge him based on results within 2 months on the job.

 

The first recruiting class that I think we can really judge Strong on regarding the in state talent is going to be 2016. 2015 is another class that he's going to have to play major catch up on. Mack had already found a way to screw up the early momentum we had with that class and Strong is stepping into a situation nearly as tough as 2014 has been for him. Sumlin and Briles and Miles have developed of relationships with the 2015 kids for a solid year plus that Strong is having to try and develop on the fly. If you're going to be critical of anyone for the situation that we are in, Mack and the powers that be who waited so long to get rid of him are the main culprits.

 

At the end of the day I understand why so many people are pessimistic right now. And I think some of it is deserved. We are going to struggle more in state than we have in years. But if we recoup those losses with kids from Florida, California, Georgia, Louisiana and the like and finish with a top 5-7 class are we going to complain? To be honest I'd rather recruit more from those places because I think there's an advantage to going after kids from there. Texas high school recruits are generally much more developed than kids from lower income Louisiana and Florida high school's. When they get into college and strength train and work with better coaching for the first times in their lives they develop into monsters. LSU has been doing this with New Orleans kids for years.

 

Valid points

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